Anyone got a rough but vaguely accurate idea on how much Op1 would cost to put together to your average DIY builder/designer (without the benefit of buying parts in bulk etc)?
Does this include programming all the code? Cuz I imagine thats where most of the cost comes from.
Nah, just hardware.
Interested to find out how much the unit costs as it seems like there are tons of talented code designers out there (look at ios apps…).
Wondering why there aren’t a lot more Op1 style devices showing up on kick-starter etc. Deluge is kind of like one I guess. And organelle (so stupid they didn’t hike the price and make it portable :(… But nothing yet seems to really have taken what the OP offers and progressed it.
Like Op1 is very clever but when you really think about it, there isn’t much going on underneath for most of the functions. Even less so now than when it was originally released. Mostly just primitive digital recording/timestrech, basic sequencing, basic synths, basic graphics. It’s genius is in the way the workflow/basic elements interact to add up to a lot more than the sum of its parts. Such a great/intuitive workflow for a lot of stuff. But that’s not like a copyrightable thing, the individual elements are mostly just re-skinned standard recording/sequencing/synth features. I’m surprised people haven’t just blatantly ripped it off and taken it to the next level with better specs etc…
As @interpolate mentions, the cost of the OP-1 is probably not at all in the individual parts. The software, R&D, tooling of the housing, tooling to mold the parts, and all that adds up much quicker than a pile of parts. But you could add up all the costs of parts based on the iFixIt page by looking up each chip represented if you really want to know what it would cost to slap together some components.
As @interpolate mentions, the cost of the OP-1 is probably not at all in the individual parts. The software, R&D, tooling of the housing, tooling to mold the parts, and all that adds up much quicker than a pile of parts. But you could add up all the costs of parts based on the iFixIt page by looking up each chip represented if you really want to know what it would cost to slap together some components.
We must have been writing at the same time 
Yeah I get that there are expenses for software R&D etc. But you could say the same for an ios app right? And they go for peanuts…
I hadn’t thought about custom tools etc. Yeah I guess that would cost a lot. Could 3d printing not be realistic alternative for a kickstarter/diy thing? Genuine question, I hear people talk about it but I have no idea about the costs/quality of 3d printing…
As @interpolate mentions, the cost of the OP-1 is probably not at all in the individual parts. The software, R&D, tooling of the housing, tooling to mold the parts, and all that adds up much quicker than a pile of parts. But you could add up all the costs of parts based on the iFixIt page by looking up each chip represented if you really want to know what it would cost to slap together some components.We must have been writing at the same time
Yeah I get that there are expenses for software R&D etc. But you could say the same for an ios app right? And they go for peanuts…I hadn’t thought about custom tools etc. Yeah I guess that would cost a lot. Could 3d printing not be realistic alternative for a kickstarter/diy thing? Genuine question, I hear people talk about it but I have no idea about the costs/quality of 3d printing…
3D printing is not a feasible way to mass generate anything. Once you are making even hundreds of a plastic part, it pays to get a mold made. The OP-1 body, however, I believe is machined aluminum. Which means you have to start with the raw cost of a chunk of aluminum, and then have it tooled down to the final shape. Then painting on top of that.
And it seems unfair to compare the programming that goes into making the OP-1 and Flappy Birds. They are two different models of business. If your goal is to create a $1 app that millions of people will buy, then you can bury your programming cost in that scale. On the other hand, if you are creating an embedded electronics product that has to work like a $750 item, then you can’t just say “oh do the work of a $1 app on this.” And sure, once it is done they could have fired the entire software engineering staff and just kept someone to maintain it for the future, but not when people also expect OS updates. So you have an ongoing cost of engineering that eats up money year-round despite the OP-1 being an old product.
Another way to look at it is the cost of creating the POs vs the OP. POs are a one-time programming project. Once it is released, you have no need to continue development on it. This could easily be done using contract engineers. Then, you bury the cost of engineering in selling a lot of $59 things for a smaller margin. There is a reason why every idea that has ever been had does not just magically get made. People said for decades that “oh if they just invented roof shingles that were also solar panels you could make a jillion dollars.” But the reality is that the cost of creating something is far more prohibitive than the cost of a beer to generate an idea.
@callofthevoid Another thought - I have been a part of several Kickstarters where they say something like, “We had plans for how to make 1,000 of these. But we didn’t expect that we would have to make 10,000 of these. Now there are new technologies that make it cheaper to do it better, faster, and more consistent.” Basically, at scale you can afford the cost of a mold, or pick-and-place soldering instead of a bunch of people hand soldering, etc. You can certainly do things the Kickstarter/DIY way in a very cheap, affordable way for an individual. But that doesn’t translate to running a business. Most DIY synth kits are being sold for barely any profit. The cost of the PCB, parts, packaging PLUS the cost of a person picking out the parts, putting them in bags, carrying them to the mailbox, and generally taking up time causes a lot of kit makers to not want to make many kits.
As @interpolate mentions, the cost of the OP-1 is probably not at all in the individual parts. The software, R&D, tooling of the housing, tooling to mold the parts, and all that adds up much quicker than a pile of parts. But you could add up all the costs of parts based on the iFixIt page by looking up each chip represented if you really want to know what it would cost to slap together some components.We must have been writing at the same time
Yeah I get that there are expenses for software R&D etc. But you could say the same for an ios app right? And they go for peanuts…I hadn’t thought about custom tools etc. Yeah I guess that would cost a lot. Could 3d printing not be realistic alternative for a kickstarter/diy thing? Genuine question, I hear people talk about it but I have no idea about the costs/quality of 3d printing…
3D printing is not a feasible way to mass generate anything. Once you are making even hundreds of a plastic part, it pays to get a mold made. The OP-1 body, however, I believe is machined aluminum. Which means you have to start with the raw cost of a chunk of aluminum, and then have it tooled down to the final shape. Then painting on top of that.
And it seems unfair to compare the programming that goes into making the OP-1 and Flappy Birds. They are two different models of business. If your goal is to create a $1 app that millions of people will buy, then you can bury your programming cost in that scale. On the other hand, if you are creating an embedded electronics product that has to work like a $750 item, then you can’t just say “oh do the work of a $1 app on this.” And sure, once it is done they could have fired the entire software engineering staff and just kept someone to maintain it for the future, but not when people also expect OS updates. So you have an ongoing cost of engineering that eats up money year-round despite the OP-1 being an old product.Another way to look at it is the cost of creating the POs vs the OP. POs are a one-time programming project. Once it is released, you have no need to continue development on it. This could easily be done using contract engineers. Then, you bury the cost of engineering in selling a lot of $59 things for a smaller margin. There is a reason why every idea that has ever been had does not just magically get made. People said for decades that “oh if they just invented roof shingles that were also solar panels you could make a jillion dollars.” But the reality is that the cost of creating something is far more prohibitive than the cost of a beer to generate an idea.
I wasn’t thinking about flappy birds. More like
something like Beatmaker 2/Nanostudio/Mitosynth etc. All pretty cheap and probably haven’t sold a ton. I love OP, I’m not slating it, just surprised some more code dudes out there aren’t looking at building the next level model. If I could code I’d do it even if it was just a prototype for my own use…
@Callthevoid
Yeah it would be cool if more people were doing this for sure. Based on the recent-ish boom in Eurorack, maybe it will come in the future. But on the other hand, you also get things like the KDJ-one that has dragged on without getting released. Even looking at how the Kordbot has been delayed in release. Almost every Kickstarter I have done has been delayed (currently over a year late on getting a 3D printer) – usually because the creators quickly realize that going from a prototype to mass released product is a whole bag of issues that they weren’t ready for (like how to get tooling, mass production, quality control, etc).
And then it makes me wonder how many people who are capable of creating something on the scale of the OP-1 are doing it on their own vs working for a big company making things like the Elektrons, Volcas, Electribes, and stuff like that. Maybe all the really creative engineers are doing something for other people instead of going on their own.
I wasn’t thinking about flappy birds. More like
something like Beatmaker 2/Nanostudio/Mitosynth etc. All pretty cheap and probably haven’t sold a ton. I love OP, I’m not slating it, just surprised some more code dudes out there aren’t looking at building the next level model. If I could code I’d do it even if it was just a prototype for my own use…
Some important differences:
- A mobile app is built on tons of existing hardware/firmware/software frameworks. TE, they have to make an entire operating system, plus the firmware to interface to all their custom hardware. Also, I’d assume the cost of licensing and all to develop on the OP-1’s DSP chips is way more than the cost of mobile development tools.
- A mobile app developer can roll out patches (relatively) as frequently as they want. TE has to create something that’s totally stable on release. Yes, bugs and things can sometimes still slip through. But it’s just a whole other level of testing and quality assurance. The same sort of contrast can be seen in the market of video games today vs older consoles—early-access/pre-alpha/release-day-patches/etc weren’t possible in the older world of cartridges.
just some off-topic thoughts (we were talking about hardware initially…)
@Callofthevoid , I think you could maybe assemble a rough bill of materials by looking at the photos through Ifixit’s OP1 page / subpages. Say the Blackfin inside is a few dollars each, but also the dev kit costs a few thousands, that’s a cost worth working in too. (a cost you couldn’t skip or influence)
the op1 is six years old. you are buying cheap as fuck hardware. at the time of its release it was prolly a more realistic number like $300. i bet its much cheaper now. The real cost when using the chipset they went with is the software to develop on it. Its a black fin i think. and Black fin really charges you for the ability to code on their devices not so much the chips themselves. the money seems to be in the software the company can control years later like the adobe suite currently is.
STM’s(arm chips) blow those six year old chips outta the water and cost $15bucks(way cheaper then a black fin) for some of the more advanced ones. Basically a full computer. even the new raspi’s are pretty crazy. TE seems pretty wise and im sure they had good reason to go with the chip sets they chose. I bet the metal case is were the price shot up somewhat but after all these years Im sure they have that under control.
In reality you didnt buy the op1 for its Horsepower. you bought it for its ability to make and inspire music. it does that great. money well spent. I bought it at launch. id prolly be hesitant to pay that same price all these years later though. TE can get away with this. there is zero competition in the market. Ipad doesnt fit the same Standalone hardware aspect and no app comes close_ although using all the apps tieing together with audiobus and recording into an ios DAW like auria or garage band is far more bang for your buck and its what i usually recommend to the $ conscious musician who asks me if they should get an op1. I had to have an op1 nobody was gonna dissuade me i bought it. for the form factor not for the build cost which at this point is most likely much lower then most people realize. but as others have said the beauty is in the software and the continued updates. shit id be happy with zero updates. the op1 was amazing day one for me and id still be using it regardless of updates.
if your question is about DIYing your own version of an op1 then i bet you could do it for <$100
encoders- $10 for a bag of 20
Screen-$10
Processor-$20 plus a dev kit maybe($10) this can vary widely id skip arduino as itll be missing lots of great stuff like usb, wifi etc. modern stuff.
but if you dont know shit arduino is a good place to start. check out Pinchettes mutable instruments eurorack synth files on github both the PCB;s and the Code is available for free to download. could pretty easy copy pasta like most people used to do on arduino. they all use stm’s for the most part. for instance braids code as your voices would be amazing.
DAC, amplifier etc- $10
audio ports-$5
Battery-$20
tact switches(although they arent so playable)-$1 for 100
eventually get your design made into PCB’s $25(revisions +25 i.e. new boards)
Case- ive been into pcb cases which can look amazing and be pretty cheap.(but thatll come last id imagine…)
I love DIY shit so id be happy to help. seriosuly im super into this.
also wtf korg get your shit together and compete with the op1.
also eurorack DIY community is bumping. they would eat up something like this. as would the synth community and pedal builders. Lots of DIY folks these days. Im very interested in coming up with new musical instruments / building them!
@masterofstuff124 the dev kit has been quoted as $3500 and I’d guess that could be per seat even, Blackfin itself under $10. I don’t think there’s argument here about where the margin / need to recover cost is coming from, but it still makes for an interesting question. One note on the Blackfin vs ARM - the first is a specialised DSP - way better when you want a system with guaranteed latency. I think Strymon stick that sort of chip inside their units - check this out.
Were it so easy.
Seriously though hardware development is vastly different than making apps for existing products, dev time is probably 10x longer because you are not simply plopping something on top of an existing operating system, even using libraries a lot more groundwork has to be done when doing standalone dedicated hardware.
Components are expensive for decent parts in small runs, agree that this comes down over time but the upfront cost can be astronomical if you are buying enough parts to make your first 100 units, then of course there are the PCB’s, housing, physical controls which can be expensive. Then factor in the cost of mistakes, for example an error in the PCB layout like something simple as a component in the wrong place. Don’t forget labour to assemble them, you won’t get many people willing to do it for minimum wage, then there is all the other stuff that people don’t consider, like admin, accounting, tax, financing, testing, marketing, advertising, logisitics, component sourcing, etc etc etc if you are just a few guys the workload can be quite high, and if you have no other income be prepared to have no money for a long time.
But anyone who has the balls to undertake such a venture has my respect, I might even buy your product 
Generally speaking, even people who seem to know what they are doing struggle getting things right when it comes to putting a new product all the way from idea, through R&D and into production, and it’s definitely not just about cost of materials, and your upfront costs before being able to get any money back from sales can be quite prohibitive.
And still, despite the potential hardships of embarking on such a perilous journey, we’d not have the OP-1 without someone willing to do that, nor many other things that make people’s lives more inspirational and meaningful. Just the fact that no one else has made anything similar to the OP-1 is saying something about how well it is designed and how risky it would be trying to compete with it.
If something comes along one day that does what the OP-1 does, just significantly better, as well as doing more without sacrificing the form factor and ease of use, I’d certainly look at it very closely and consider upgrading. As of now, even more than five years on, the OP-1 still feels as if it is from the future rather than from the past. Indeed, when I got mine, the clock was set to the year 2020. Perhaps that is when the next big thing will come out?
What I was trying to say is that I’m surprised more people havent just totally replicated it, with only minor changes, but better spec. And this form factor layout become like a standard thing across an area of audio hardware. Like how things like RYTM/Toraiz/new MPC etc are all very familiar to each other. The organelle seems closest thing out there but it’s way different still and misses the Op1 ‘all in one’ vibe when comes to putting a full song together. Much cheaper than Op1 tho. £380 at digital village right now.
For instance people mention above the possible expense/headache of stuff like screwing the layout up and having to re-think/re-manufacture. But I mean it seems odd no one has just taken the current easiest/cheapest option (apparently the new mpc uses Linux and pretty powerful sounding board that costs $99 with 16gb mem, 2gb ram) would maybe be good option? And use the OP1 layout as a proven successful design, but just upgrade it to 8 tracks, ton more memory for user patches, expand the max pattern lengths, pattern memory, 2nd Lfo, more fx etc. I can’t imagine comparable synth engines being very difficult to design to folks that are already doing that stuff? Same with the sequencer the types? It seems like it would be child’s play compared to coding an OT alternative. Just seems like potentially a relatively risk-free, cheap, very likely successful road to take for someone with design chops and the time to do it? As people have pointed out above though, I’m probably not seeing the whole picture.
I pay my bills with embedded firmware coding since over 9 years.
If it were “child’s play” I wouldn’t be making that much money.
I pay my bills with embedded firmware coding since over 9 years.
If it were "child's play" I wouldn't be making that much money.
Yeah, I get that I said compared to programming an octatrack OS